喜欢用简单的数字来解释: 譬如加拿大就只有四个人, 两个老白和两个小白, 从小交税, 老白用自己的税怡养天年, 小白不想生孩子或是同志来的, 也能够用自己的税怡养天年, 但是若干年后加拿大就没人了面临关张. 于是, 他们... -workopolis(workaholic) @枫下论坛 The Rolia Forum

枫下茶话 / 政治经济 / 问一下，加拿大有没有过中国移民主导的示威？支持保钓什么的不算，要是反对加国政府政策的示威才算。没有的话，这个反对政府限制父母类移民政策的示威倒是可以开个先例。会哭的孩子有奶吃，至少让政府知道有那么一帮人很生气。 -seyou(快下雪快下雪快下雪); 2005-2-24 (#2143182@0)

加拿大引进移民就是因为人口老化,劳动力不足以支持退休金尤其是医疗系统. 如果每个新移民都想为1-2名老年父母移民,没有为社会保障体系做过贡献的老人直接来享受医疗福利, 帐单由谁付? 政府可能这么做吗? -7y7(醉里吴音); 2005-2-24 {384} (#2143228@0)
政府不是福利机构, 取之于民用之于民, 加拿大移民政策是为了本国利益, 为了选票. 算算经济帐, 几十万中国老人移民过来, 每个加拿大纳税人每年要多付多少医疗税费?

此外, 投票权才是说话权, 在大部分加国公民都有为父母办移民的需要前, 不管你怎么示威都没有用

我看比较现实的办法是要求改进探亲签证, 让老人可以在加拿大长期居住, 医疗费用由子女私人承担, 要尽孝就得自己承担责任, 不能指望政府办慈善事业

nod -babyface(★Million-$-Baby★); 2005-2-24 (#2143239@0)

You should say: Nod, but I am not an Indian. -noproblem(大可以); 2005-2-24 (#2143244@0)

很好奇的问一句：为什么给华人的配额这么少？是不是因为华人其他方面占用的配额比较多，包括有些人在底特律投档办父母移民，那么多的团聚移民，和难民申请？瞎猜的，别砸我。 -ebusiness(每天进步多一些); 2005-2-24 (#2143258@0)
Actually, my post above was a joke, no offence to anybody. In Indian culture, Nod is "Yes", Shake your head is "No", so called "点头不算摇头算". That's why I asked babyface clarified. -noproblem(大可以); 2005-2-24 (#2143412@0)

Then Nod is "No", haha -xanada(㊣流水); 2005-2-24 (#2143421@0)

名人终於发言了。别人不敢跟，这个敢跟：支持77！ -llrm(小陳不姓徐); 2005-2-24 (#2143248@0)

7 -sealuncle(_); 2005-2-24 (#2143307@0)

Agree. -pandora(pandora); 2005-2-24 (#2143251@0)
游行示威也许改变不了现行政策，但是可以显示华人的力量，加强华人的凝聚力，从而提高华人的地位。 -gthm(改头换面); 2005-2-24 (#2143254@0)
只有中国的老人来了才会用医疗, 新德里来的就不用吗? -workopolis(workaholic); 2005-2-24 (#2143257@0)

其实少一个中国老人来，就多一个斯里兰卡新德里的老人来。我们中国人一定要争取自己的利益！ -gthm(改头换面); 2005-2-24 (#2143260@0)

好啊，这可以成为游行的一个标语：More Chinese, no more Sri Lankan！ No more New Delhian! -llrm(小陳不姓徐); 2005-2-24 (#2143270@0)

No such joking plese. -3hohoho(hohoho); 2005-3-13 (#2176427@0)

其实我原来也和嘴里无音想法差不多, 那句"加拿大缺纳税人而不是缺选民"就是我说的. 但是, 但是我们说到平等, 那张所谓的团聚配额太欺负人啦, 十多年来中国移民始终居前列, 先香港后大陆, 凭什么中国的团聚配额那么少呢? -workopolis(workaholic); 2005-2-24 (#2143288@0)

"嘴里无音", so funny -table(桌子来了); 2005-2-24 (#2143370@0)

总数不用变，但分配比率应该公平吧？ -goodbaby(小宝); 2005-2-24 (#2143297@0)
nod nod. -cher(春豆); 2005-2-24 (#2143313@0)
其实跟我没关系，因为我父母压根儿就没打算来。可是想想，觉得那些想来的父母还是挺可怜的，一拖10年，有些过份。还有，为什么游行不重要，只要是让官老爷们知道，这个政策很多人不满意。示威多了，这种政策出台的可能性就会小多了。 -seyou(快下雪快下雪快下雪); 2005-2-24 (#2143320@0)
这话说得,比以前的77差好远... -goodbaby(小宝); 2005-2-24 {735} (#2143362@0)
算算经济帐, 几十万中国老人移民过来, 每个加拿大纳税人每年要多付多少医疗税费?

这是想移就移的么？不是有个配额在那里么？

此外, 投票权才是说话权, 在大部分加国公民都有为父母办移民的需要前, 不管你怎么示威都没有用。

那现在怎么会让人办团聚移民？难民？是 “大部分加国公民都有为父母办移民的需要” 了还是 "大部分加国公民都有难民的需要" 了？

我看比较现实的办法是要求改进探亲签证, 让老人可以在加拿大长期居住, 医疗费用由子女私人承担, 要尽孝就得自己承担责任, 不能指望政府办慈善事业。

这也不失为一种方法。不过说到底，还是加拿大的医疗体系问题。吃的是奶，挤的是草，草价格还特高。
另外保险公司太黑也是问题。
如果医疗系统的效率/费用能提高，那么jeffery说的risk 就会降低些。保险公司可以少赚些黑心钱，那大家也就没那么大顾虑非要移民了。

"要尽孝就得自己承担责任, 不能指望政府办慈善事业。", bingo, you got the point -table(桌子来了); 2005-2-24 (#2143372@0)
不错。其实中国大陆移民都没几十万，谁指望加拿大能接纳中国父母几十万，别说的太夸张了。况且还有这么多7x7这样不想要父母来添负担的 -vega_lee(天津包子-就不改); 2005-2-24 (#2143402@0)

A person can think in this way, but not a country. -morningwind(morning_wind); 2005-2-24 {1500} (#2143644@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛Our taxes are supporting so many old people here (maybe include your parents), why it cannot be used to support these hard working immigrants’ parents also? Yes, these parents are aged, but their children are contributing to this country greatly. Obligations and rights are together, If Canada wishes us to pay our obligations, it should be ready share us fair rights. In fact, government should cut their waste, instead of cutting parent immigration quota, as immigrated parents are not the real cause of social problems, like healthcare problem. Even if Canada completely forbids parents immigration here, it has no real help for the existing social problems. How can the government treat us in such a way? Let us work so hard to support this society, and at the same time, let people believe these hard workers’ parents are useless and their immigration will just damage the society?! To be honest, I cannot accept such logic at all. That’s why we need to speak out our feelings loudly and let government know that. If the government still insists what they did, I believe lots of people will re-recognize Canada and re-considerate their decision to be (or come) here or not. Because I suppose it is related to the reputation of a country, especially Canada is talking about human rights everyday and everywhere. For those who gave applause to the government’s attitude on this affair, I can only say, hope you what you supported are really so reliable and won’t let you disappointed one day.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

You don't even understand her comments. Your parents did NOT paying a single cent in tax. But the old people here, 90% of them have paid tax for their whole life. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2005-2-24 (#2143722@0)

You didn't catch my meaning at all. The point is immigrants here should have the rights to unify their parents or grand-parents in Canada, -morningwind(morning_wind); 2005-2-24 {106} (#2143795@0)
they are deserved a fair treatment as they are contributing to this country and paying lots of taxes here.

Again, you don't understand her comments. You pay the tax to cover yourself. Your parents did not pay the tax to cover themselve. But the elderlys here DID pay the tax to cover themselve. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2005-2-24 {154} (#2143799@0)
So the best solution is to legislate to allow unlimited immigration but the children has to be 100% responsible for the health care cost of their parents.

To be frankly, cannot agree with you. -morningwind(morning_wind); 2005-2-24 {372} (#2143829@0)
“You pay the tax to cover yourself”,
we all pay taxes for the whole society, not only ourselves but also a lot of people who need help.

“elderlys here DID pay the tax to cover themselve”,
if they can really “cover themselves”, why Canada still need so many immigrants to come here? If they need us to support them, why we cannot support our own parents also?

Yes. You got the point. You have to support your parents. You are responsible for them. The tax you paid is so little compare to their health care needs. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2005-2-24 {63} (#2143832@0)
没有为社会保障体系做过贡献的老人直接来享受医疗福利, 帐单由谁付?

please don't be so absolute, “The tax you paid is so little compare to their health care needs” how can you make the judgement to others without know anything? -morningwind(morning_wind); 2005-2-24 (#2143843@0)

Buddy. I am in the health care business. Maybe you don't know how much you need to pay for it, but I do. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2005-2-24 (#2143853@0)

really nice to meet you, I am also in healthcare industory, so you should be very clear that the system needs improvement, like more auditing, instead of forbiding people to turn to the system. -morningwind(morning_wind); 2005-2-24 {111} (#2143953@0)
Let's look futher, people spend money, and giveing out at the same time, that's how a country makes progress.

Forbiding people never pay into the system to turn to the system. It is fair this way. If you are in the health care system, you should know how much it costs. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2005-2-25 {199} (#2145274@0)
And you should also know that no matter how good a health care system is, it always subject to criticism.

Furthermore, I have not yet seen a gov't who can fully fund their health care system yet.

Cannot be the reason to stop people unifying with their parents. Now we are talking about the right for us immigrants what we should have. -morningwind(morning_wind); 2005-2-25 (#2145314@0)

Yes. That is why we should use a crediting system like US (or like the CPP benefit in Canada). You have to contribute certain amount into the system before you use it. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2005-2-25 (#2146582@0)

It's basic human rights to let a family to be unified, not to mention all sponsers have to be economicly qualifid by Canadian parental sponsership application laws. -morningwind(morning_wind); 2005-2-26 (#2147326@0)

Yes, you got the point. The sponsors can always stay in China or go back to China! -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2005-2-26 (#2147538@0)

that's not your business at all -morningwind(morning_wind); 2005-2-26 (#2147807@0)

That is your right. No one blocks you. If you are in US, forget about sponsoring your parents. And should you say US violate your human right? geez... You don't even know the defn of human right. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2005-2-27 (#2149119@0)

us citizen can sponsor their parents, and it doesn't take 10 years. -lile601(lile601); 2005-2-27 (#2149488@0)

Read the last paragraph. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2005-2-28 (#2150802@0)

pls check US CIS website, you will find the updated processing time. If US citizen sponsor their parents, if the parents are already in US, around 1 year -lile601(lile601); 2005-2-28 {271} (#2151163@0)
of processing time, if the parents are out of US, as for consulate processing, Guangzhou's timing is 2-3 years. But for other regions, like Taiwan, stiil less than 1 year. This is 2004 information.

I wish our Canadian not to put ourself down to Aussie's level, sigh.

I based my info on this article, just like everyone else who base their info from this article. Besides, as you said, you cannot even do it if you are not US citizen. And how long do you need to wait before you become a citizen? -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2005-2-28 {178} (#2151488@0)
Is that a violation of your human right?

Not to mention the parents immigrated to US do not enjoy free health care and many social other benefits. Mediaid does not cover them.

One question: does Canadian Constitution not allow parents to reunite with their Child in Canada? I just wnat to hear yes or no! thanks. -3hohoho(hohoho); 2005-3-13 (#2176489@0)

As I said, I support parent immigration with a quota limit, in line with our economic conditions and gov't budget. Yes. Canadian Constitution allows parents to reunite with their Child in Canada -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2005-3-13 (#2176837@0)

good, you are not like those who comments without any mind. -3hohoho(hohoho); 2005-3-13 (#2177105@0)

喜欢用简单的数字来解释: 譬如加拿大就只有四个人, 两个老白和两个小白, 从小交税, 老白用自己的税怡养天年, 小白不想生孩子或是同志来的, 也能够用自己的税怡养天年, 但是若干年后加拿大就没人了面临关张. 于是, 他们... -workopolis(workaholic); 2005-2-24 {834} (#2143861@0)
就引进移民, 社会除了交税, 还要有人劳动, 劳动才是促进社会发展的动力啊, 所以要再引进一个国人, 一个阿X, 一个jamacian, 和另一个小白, 八个人各做各的, 社会就活啦, 吃喝玩乐各行业都有, 就能够发展啦. 但是, 加拿大还是资本主义的初级阶段, 还不具备帝国主义的实力, 这八个人也就够自己交税, 让政府帮存着, 等老了怡养天年, 可是呢, 如果这四个移民又带了八个父母来, 社会资源就可能不够分配了, 从原来自给自足, 变成了八个交税的, 养八个没交过税的, 原来拿一份的, 现在就剩一半的说啦, 可怕吧, 再加上社会发展所需要的人口结构等原因, 等两个小白和四个年轻移民年老的时候, 如果他们的下一代数量太少, 或者都移民去了美国或中国等吸引力更大的地方, 交税的人更少也不能象他们上一代那样还能分到一半, 于是可能已经没有剩下的钱给他们养老了, 更不用说怡养天年啦. 这就是为什么独立移民年龄越大打分越低的原因, 也是这36-40个月的根本原因.

从小数字能力较差, 不脱鞋数不到11, 欢迎商榷.

第一, 两个老白中就有可能一个没有工作过,也没交过税. 第二, 四个引进的人按配额比例也不可能8个老人过来. 第三, 社会资源不够分配, 根本原因不是因为那些移民过来的老人. -frances1007(天上所有的星); 2005-3-15 (#2181041@0)

#2143372 -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2005-2-24 (#2143800@0)

90% of them? where did you get the number? As I know, many canadian old people never worked all their lives and paid nothing like tax to the government. According your talking, -frances1007(天上所有的星); 2005-3-15 {112} (#2181011@0)
have the right to use the welfare of this country? Don't use paying tax as an excuse and be reasonable, please.
#2181011 -frances1007(天上所有的星); 2005-3-15 (#2181014@0)

缺乏良知！试问人权、人道何在？政府都知道只能悄悄减慢审批速度，并不敢明示。您倒好，全说出来了。 -walker(walker); 2005-2-24 (#2143835@0)
great -ineaton(AN); 2005-2-24 (#2143837@0)
会计算出来的帐一定特耐人寻味......忽略了目前这方面最根本的方面:1.搞族裔配额伤害了公平原则立场 2.签出APPROVAL带着N时间内办好,意味着一份承诺,现在是政府违约...至于公民权,大多申请者都不缺吧... -yihan(逸涵); 2005-2-24 {58} (#2143871@0)
也许77嫁的是外族人,已经忘记了生来处的同胞有着不同的追求...

Exactly! 1.搞族裔配额伤害了公平原则立场 2.签出APPROVAL带着N时间内办好,意味着一份承诺,现在是政府违约... -nathalie(Nathalie); 2005-2-25 {1820} (#2146215@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛Let's look at some background information:

加拿大移民政策是为了本国利益, 为了选票.
True! Canada paid nothing for our education (I worked part time to pay for my graduate program in Canada), yet I'm paying tax to Canada. Everybody knows 利益 and responsibility come hand in hand. The government of Canada certainly knows this.

算算经济帐, 几十万中国老人移民过来, 每个加拿大纳税人每年要多付多少医疗税费?
This can't justify the 族裔配额 policy. Even the government doesn't dare to admit the 族裔配额 policy. I'm not sure if there are really hundreds of thousands of eligible "old Chinese people" want to immigrate into Canada. My parents came and left. My in-laws came and left. They came again and haven't decided whether or not immigrate.

此外, 投票权才是说话权, 在大部分加国公民都有为父母办移民的需要前, 不管你怎么示威都没有用
Most Canadian citizens (white, black, yellow, or red) know about fair play and equaty, even they don't need to sponsor their parents. The paper in Toronto Star partially prove their attitude. Some white Canadian may not like us Chinese and try to neglect the unfair treatment we are suffering, but most reasonable people don't feel good about being blatantly unfair. We need to let them, especially people around us, know that there is inequity in the land of Canada.

我看比较现实的办法是要求改进探亲签证, 让老人可以在加拿大长期居住, 医疗费用由子女私人承担, 要尽孝就得自己承担责任, 不能指望政府办慈善事业
We 尽孝because we appreciate our parents and in-laws raising us and giving us good education, etc. I bet the government of Canada realizes this when it taxes us. Nobody's 指望政府办慈善事业. 政府 knows its responsibilities that come with taxing people whose education they havn't paid for, so it set an income threshold for sponsoring parents. Fair enough!更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

Great! Very well said. -gilucky(whatever); 2005-3-13 (#2176985@0)

no wondering. Hope her parents-in-law have no such re-unite issue! -3hohoho(hohoho); 2005-3-13 (#2176469@0)

言重了. 言重了. It is simple to fight the dirty tricks of the goverment. -tidy(大米虫); 2005-3-4 (#2157860@0)
7y7 (醉里吴音) and judy_an(绿腰); you two better better hang around with 闲聊灌水区 -3hohoho(hohoho); 2005-3-13 {512} (#2176462@0)
what you two said about this matter are so brainless comparing to what you chat in 闲聊灌水区.

Nobody will stop you if any one wants to be a second class citizen in this country. It is not your say to block others fighting for their equality under the same Constitution.

"我看比较现实的办法是要求改进探亲签证, 让老人可以在加拿大长期居住, 医疗费用由子女私人承担, 要尽孝就得自己承担责任, 不能指望政府办慈善事业 "

Even the Government dares not to propose such damn policy, wondering why you dare to?
http://www.rolia.net/forum/forum_showPost.php?tno=265148&pno=2176501& -abighead12(西湖梨园); 2005-3-13 (#2176583@0)
别看你是这里的所谓的名人,照批不误! -airbus380(空客380); 2005-3-13 {516} (#2177035@0)
问一下,新移民的(特别是大陆来的)具体数字是多少?占加拿大人口的多大比例? 是不是每个人都要把父母办来? 有多少父母愿意离开自己生活了半个世纪的环境? 不用你这么杞人忧天吧! 再说, 就是父母来了, 吃穿住行, 加拿大政府包吗?不就是个半身不遂的医疗系统吗? 我们自己买商业保险成不?声明: 本人父母国内生活舒服着呢,医疗国家包, 最多来探探亲就是了,本人就是看不惯那些国人中的250,中国人在哪里都算是老实的一群人了, 刚有想法站出来争取一下自己的权利,你们就吼东吼西,好象这些中国父母来了,损害了你家的利益似的! 看不管那种国人中的恶心的自贱作风!!!!

TONG4 KUAI4! Great! Sorry can't type Chinese now. -gilucky(whatever); 2005-3-13 (#2177280@0)

YOU ARE NOT "POLITICAL CORRECT" -lnljl(Nike); 2005-3-13 {540} (#2177338@0)
没错，您说得对：“政府不是福利机构, 取之于民用之于民, 加拿大移民政策是为了本国利益, 为了选票. 算算经济帐, 几十万中国老人移民过来, 每个加拿大纳税人每年要多付多少医疗税费? ”

可这理由说不出口，随便哪个人都是爹妈养的，上到总理下到公务员，哪个都不能把这理由放台面上，所以不能禁止父母移民，只能暗地里搞小动作，你看那个议员敢提这种议案：“禁止父母移民”？，这就是"POLITICAL CORRECT“

所以，有啥好吵得？既然法律不禁止，移民部搞小动作当然要被人抗议，那是活该！

至于有个别主儿沾了便宜还卖乖，这种人我们也见得多了，随他去吧，就是一笑话而已
从来没指望政府是慈善机构, 新移民也不是说话就可以把父母移民过来的, 都要达到一定的条件才行. 而且, 几十万中国老人移过来, 您也太夸张了. 现在积压的申请一共才1094件. -frances1007(天上所有的星); 2005-3-15 {81} (#2180986@0)
如果一切以眼前利益为重, 不从长远考虑, 加拿大标榜自己是人道主义国家的行为可以休矣.

"加拿大有没有过中国移民主导的示威？" the answer is YES, many Chinese were in the street to against equal rights for marriage, @_@ -table(桌子来了); 2005-2-24 (#2143424@0)

Thoses protests were organized by no Chinese community but Chinese churches. -gthm(改头换面); 2005-2-24 (#2143433@0)

are the Chinese churches a part of Chinese community ? @_@ -table(桌子来了); 2005-2-24 (#2143459@0)

I don't think so. They are part of religious organizations. -gthm(改头换面); 2005-2-24 (#2143468@0)

what's your definition for "Chinese community "? -table(桌子来了); 2005-2-24 (#2143479@0)

这个早在1980年发生的由中国香港移民对抗加拿大主流媒体的一次种族歧视行为的大规模示威活动应该算吧。我们可以认为，香港移民从这样一次成功的呐喊中赢得了加拿大各界的尊重和自身的地位。两个官方链接供参考。
-workopolis(workaholic); 2005-2-26 (#2148367@0)

good! thank you. -3hohoho(hohoho); 2005-3-13 (#2176498@0)

还真TMD有人为政府如此着想. 学JACKSON换了皮肤, 您老人家就圆满了. -china-cat(chinacat); 2005-2-27 (#2148629@0)

强烈建议名人们补补法律常识课，搞明白民主社会的立法和执法先。引用圆正方形的观点就是，移民部作为执法构在没有法律条文的情况下，擅自变相剥夺移民/公民的团聚权利是违法的。 -abighead12(西湖梨园); 2005-3-13 (#2176602@0)

喜欢用简单的数字来解释: 譬如加拿大就只有四个人, 两个老白和两个小白, 从小交税, 老白用自己的税怡养天年, 小白不想生孩子或是同志来的, 也能够用自己的税怡养天年, 但是若干年后加拿大就没人了面临关张. 于是, 他们...

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