Update: Newly published TDSB research report, <STUDENT CENSUS: CORRELATIONS OF SCHOOL EXPERIENCE WITH STUDENT DEMOGRAPHICS AND ACHIEVEMENT> (you might check the section 'School Experiences by Student Racial Background', page starting 24) -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra) @枫下论坛 The Rolia Forum

枫下茶话 / 社会 / Update: Conference call with TDSB (Ms. Donna Quan and Ms. Maria Yau) -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2010-12-1 {4671} (#6391963@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛FYI., Sorry it's in English.

This morning I had a conference call with TDSB, participants include Ms. Donna Quan, Ms. Maria Yau. It is in response to my emails sent to TDSB days ago, regarding TDSB's role in Toronto Star's article, 'Asian students suffering for success' (published on November 10, 2010 on Toronto Star).

Ms. Donna Quan is the Deputy Directory, Academic.
ms. Maria Yau is the Chair, External Research Review Committee.

Here's a brief on the conference:

TDSB too was concerned about the way Toronto Star's article quoting comments by TDSB staff during the “East Asian Parents: Multiple Pathways to Success”. TDSB belives that Toronto Star's article took the comments out of their contexts, thus failed to deliver the original messages that TDSB and its staff was to deliver.

TDSB has received many feedback from the public expressing their concerns over the articles published by Macleans, Toronto Star, and the way that TDSB was involved.

After concerns were raised, TDSB has been actively contacting Toronto Star regarding this issue. Efforts were made by Donna Quan, Deputy Directory, Academic at TDSB, and Shaun Chen, one of TDSB's trustees. Toronto Star gave sensible feedback to TDSB, however they were not made public.

TDSB was actively involved in the conference “East Asian Parents: Multiple Pathways to Success" and it's part of TDSB's job to engage in similar events. The purpose of this specific conference is to encourage parents to see a bigger picture in education, to consider multiple pathways to success. It involved 8 different workshops in three different languages—English, Cantonese, and Mandarin. The content of the workshops included The college education – a Different Pathway to Success; Developing Social and Life Skills; Understanding Your Child`s Multiple Intelligences; University Admission and Course Selection; and more.

Ms. Maria Yau's comments during the conference, “Even though our children always seem to have high enough marks to get into university, the hidden truth is that they don’t always have the independence or social skills to survive once they’re there”, is based on surveys conducted by TDSB among students. As Maria said, according to the student survey, substantial amount of students of Asian background expressed lack of confidence in competency and social skills. (It's said by TDSB that the survey results can be found on TDSB's website, navigate through 'About Us'-> 'Research'...)

According to the article published by Toronto Star, Ms. Maria Yau said it’s not “natural” for any group to have so many students heading for university. Maria didn't give me an explanation of which 'group' she was talking about, however emphasized that the argument applies to 'any group'.

Also, according to Maria Yau, she's known Louise Brown for many years. So she had some casual conversations with him when he reported on the conference, during which her son was mentioned. Also during the conversations, she mentioned some of the students that have difficulties in adjusting themselves in pursuing higher education. However, Maria has never expected that her comments during these casual conversations were quoted by Louise in his article. Maria said that if she knew it would go public, she would use more techniques in what she was to say so as to deliver messages that won't cause misunderstandings.

According to Louise Brown, “The conference caught my eye because it focused on parents and education. It’s true that a lot of parents of all backgrounds are obsessed by wanting their children to go to university and don’t let their kids consider other paths such as college. I’d never seen one particular cultural group address this in a conference however.”

When asked opinion on this, Maria mentioned she think it's rather positive, as Across U-hub and TDSB is doing a great job trying to help the East Asian community in education. And according to Maria, in the future TDSB will be involved in more similar events catering to the needs of other groups.

When asked about the opinion on parents of East Asian background who were allegedly pushing their children to go to universities, Donna said she believe that all parents would expect their children to pursue better education, it's positive, race and ethnicity doesn't matter.

In short, TDSB hopes the message is spread to the public, that: TDSB also believes in and always promotes equal opportunities for all students, regardless of race and ethnicity; TDSB shoudn't be blamed for the article published by Toronto Star, TDSB needs support from the public.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

did you ask this Ms. Yau , is it “natural” for so many blacks in jail and so many whites in board of directors? I really do not want to sound personal, but i always wonder thats this Ms. Yau's ethical background? a chinese? -win(秋天的菠菜); 2010-12-1 (#6391984@0)

While I have to focus on this matter, however I'm with you. According to Toronto Star, Maria moved to Canada in 1995 from Hong Kong. -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2010-12-1 (#6391995@0)

it IS about this matter. my question is not about blacks nor whites, it is about yellows. -win(秋天的菠菜); 2010-12-1 (#6391999@0)

single out?:)) -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392006@0)

i beg your pardon, sir? -win(秋天的菠菜); 2010-12-1 (#6392007@0)

easy, just kidding. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392013@0)

is it "natural" so many indians drive cabs? is it "natural" so many kids in kindergartons but not many adults? is it "natural" only women in ladies rooms? isnt it unfair to men? WTK! -win(秋天的菠菜); 2010-12-1 (#6391991@0)

Haha. Now i am so confused about what is "natural" situation. What is the standdard and definition of "being natural"? -hotmoon(梵高的耳朵); 2010-12-1 (#6392088@0)

yes, when she used the word "nature" i was really confused, and I just want to present my confusion here and show her ridicule. -win(秋天的菠菜); 2010-12-1 (#6392110@0)

The "not natural" comment still makes me sick. So it is official TDSB believe "certain group" got too many kids in the university. And we can pretend don't know which group it is. -walkalong(youstartedit); 2010-12-1 (#6391998@0)

真话有时候不说会被批评, 说出来也会得罪人人. 哈哈, -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392010@0)

嗯，你这哈哈笑得我有点寒。也许有人孩子大了，孩子也不打算要孩子。。。也没有兄弟朋友要好的邻居同学想要孩子，才能笑得出来。心肺啊心肺.....不成，我这还想着子孙的俗人就得较这个真。 -walkalong(youstartedit); 2010-12-1 (#6392051@0)

我说的是事实. 有的人对真实有恐惧和过敏. 因此有人就不愿意找麻烦. 这也是问题. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392055@0)

Too bad, Ms. Maria Yau didn't clarify on this. This is a question she won't answer directly. I was not convinced either, as I said to them. -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2010-12-1 (#6392017@0)

Thanks.我的印象是.加拿大的社区对多元化是重视和认真的. 他们想发现和解决问题. 在这个过程种会有些误解. 各种组织包括华人应该尽量去理解和交换意见, 而不是一上来就以一种对立的情绪看问题. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392000@0)

when you cannot answer my questions, you say i have "对立的情绪". i DO strongely disagree this Ms. Yau's rationale. answer me: is jails too black? is BOD to white? are cab drivers too indian?is lady's room too feminine?by the way,I had problem to -win(秋天的菠菜); 2010-12-1 {148} (#6392015@0)
believe Ms. Yau's comment was from a public servant, let alone a senior one. with that in her mind, I do not think she is qualified for that post.

小姐, 我可没有说你啊, 你误解我了. 冤枉啊.我是在倡导这种对话的解决问题的方式. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392026@0)

son, do not address people 小姐 when you are not clear the identity. it is common sense and you show us how "good" a person you are. -win(秋天的菠菜); 2010-12-1 (#6392034@0)

I am truly sorry for this. my bad. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392043@0)

Yes. The situations you mentioned above are all true. But nobody dare to write something like that on mainstream media. I was called racist by even using "black people" instead of " African-American". -hotmoon(梵高的耳朵); 2010-12-1 (#6392118@0)

这些是问题么？你可以说是，也可以说不是。黑人坐牢因为罪犯人数多。白人当头因为政治感好，方向感好。黄人搞耐性强的东西。显微镜下都不公平，望远镜下是一片和谐。 -win(秋天的菠菜); 2010-12-1 (#6392135@0)

这个说的好. 因此人群都有自己的长和短, 要正视这个事实. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392165@0)
公民意识强，在本地出生，或是民主体制国家出来的人，对此文的反应就相对强烈。问过一个南韩来的多大学生，他都不知道麦这本杂志，我就简单的告诉他，一篇文章说多大亚裔学生较多，比较苦读书，不善社交，他马上说“这不公平， -hotmoon(梵高的耳朵); 2010-12-1 {58} (#6392224@0)
英语不是我的母语，本地人花一小时读书，我就要花3到4个小时。

+1. Well said. -dongl(冬令); 2010-12-1 (#6392128@0)
把不可比的东西硬放在一起比较并不能说明问题, 有时候也可能会misleading. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392175@0)

so please tell me why they are 不可比? -win(秋天的菠菜); 2010-12-1 (#6392338@0)

好的. 请给我点时间.在进行对比的时候有个可比性的问题, 否则人们可以随意举例子去反对任何事情的原则和标准.本来是会计学的内容, 但也可以被用来作为讨论的方法. 你举的几个例子, 都不在同一个行业, 最主要的是没有相似和可比的标准, 太随意.出现在中国古代的狡辩术里很多. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392341@0)

不在同一个行业,就没有可比性？ come on, you gotta find some other excuses better than that ... -win(秋天的菠菜); 2010-12-1 (#6392543@0)

关键一点，华人子女接受高等教育比例大，这到底是不是个问题？ -coolmao(酷猫*Zensunni); 2010-12-1 (#6392029@0)

如果简单的从数量说, 绝对不是个问题.就如一个国家的GDP高本身不是问题一样. 但肯定有非数量的因素和问题在里面. 我想这是人们忽略的问题. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392032@0)

那人家说“not natural",该怎么办呢？ -coolmao(酷猫*Zensunni); 2010-12-1 (#6392036@0)

这是一种意见, 总得让别人表达吧, 至少听听她为什么这么说. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392058@0)

意见也有善意和敌意的，建设性的和诋毁性的。你都认可？ -coolmao(酷猫*Zensunni); 2010-12-1 (#6392134@0)

看法肯定不同.如何统一标准? -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392157@0)

绝大多数情况下，多数人支持/反对的，就是标准。极少数情况下，真理在少数人手中。 -coolmao(酷猫*Zensunni); 2010-12-1 (#6392203@0)

我说过, 很多社会问题不能用是否真理来判断. 而涉及种族问题有时候也会被自己的情绪误导. 我一直觉得这件事情有误解和被夸大的现象.因此, 我很赞同LZ这种做事情的方法, 他并没有先给对方定性, 而是先进行交流. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392217@0)

社会问题就一定要顺从多数人的意见了。很多人看完文章觉得不舒服。那这件事的误解在哪里呢？ -coolmao(酷猫*Zensunni); 2010-12-1 (#6392232@0)

我说不一定. 因为在经过沟通和理解以后, 事情或公众的情绪可能会改变, 要给双一定的交流和理解的时间. "很多人"是个不定代词, 也有很多人并不这么看. 不是么? -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392256@0)

让他说! 不是还邪不压正呢末。等他直着说出来，我们再反击。能不能赢的，有国联哪.....就输了，反正我们占理。大不了孩子不上大学去打累脖。对，先说好，就这我们也不是３等公民, 因为我们还在自砺自强呢，这么样的民族，任谁也只有一个"好"字。 -walkalong(youstartedit); 2010-12-1 (#6392071@0)

到底有没有问题？觉得你是先下结论，再找论据。GDP太高了，一定有什么问题吧。华人子女上学多了，有什么问题吧，咱找找吧。 -coolmao(酷猫*Zensunni); 2010-12-1 (#6392040@0)

别急, 酷猫, 我觉得我和你交流应该没问题. 我从不认为GDP高是问题. 问题在于这个高是靠房地产或拆迁还是靠科技和制造业. 里面就有个构成问题.还有个良性问题. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392064@0)

我可没跟你急。我老早就觉得这事他们找错了对象。与其老盯着华人社区指手画脚，到不如花点时间看看怎么帮别的社区。 -coolmao(酷猫*Zensunni); 2010-12-1 (#6392091@0)

"The purpose of this specific conference is to encourage parents to see a bigger picture in education, to consider multiple pathways to success. It involved 8 different workshops in three different languages" -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392161@0)

Is this anything wrong? -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392178@0)

any results? -coolmao(酷猫*Zensunni); 2010-12-1 (#6392206@0)

不同的问题, 可能好心办坏事情, 但看是否有华人支持. 没人支持就取消这些活动. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392210@0)

我问你一个问题, 政府或企业要雇佣一定数量和比例的少数民族, 这是什么道理?按照能力录取是唯一的原则和标准么? 那么学校按照分数录取是否是唯一的标准? 我想这个问题更敏感.绝对不亚于所谓种族歧视问题. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392052@0)

问的好。公平是个＂彼岸＂概念，人永远不可能达到完全公平。而且根本没有完全公平这个东西。 -win(秋天的菠菜); 2010-12-1 (#6392063@0)

那么在社会上如何达到动态公平，或相对公平？靠各集团维护各自利益，民主协商解决。但政府极其发言人立场要很小心。我们亚洲人还是少数民族的情况下，政府人员就谈要削减份额，怎能答应？当然如果社会上大多数人坚持，我们只能接受，民主么，人票多你没办法 -win(秋天的菠菜); 2010-12-1 (#6392077@0)
谢谢.我进一步想说的就是.我们有一个标准,标准是大家公认的比较好的(无法判断是否最好),实行这个标准时间长了,可能会产生意想不到的问题或担心.这应该是正常和可以讨论的. 比如, 如果学校想赚钱, 那么录取国际留学生最好, 因此是否要有一个比例呢? 比例多少合适呢? -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392079@0)

同样的道理, 只按照分数录取, 亚洲学生肯定在某些学校比例高, 和专业等也有关系, 是否可以让别人有自己的关心和担心呢? 把事情放在中国, 也一样会有类似的问题, 因此, 我反对动不动就用种族歧视的态度去看待.中国高等教育地区歧视的问题比这个严重的多. 大家如何了? -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392082@0)

他们担心没有问题，人有思想的自由。但他们在媒体上准备削减我们的份额，还有政府人参与，我必须反对。靠数字硬性规定的，不是公平，是共产主义。要靠各自发声来维护自己利益，看能否说服多数人.要替别人想，也要替自己想。 -win(秋天的菠菜); 2010-12-1 (#6392097@0)

"但他们在媒体上准备削减我们的份额，还有政府人参与". 是这样么? -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392123@0)

TDSB算不算政府? 至少是纳税人养的. -dongl(冬令); 2010-12-1 (#6392139@0)

他们在谈"削减我们的份额"了么? -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392151@0)

没瞧见麦克林在副标题wisper吗? -dongl(冬令); 2010-12-1 (#6392163@0)

对新闻, 我有自己的看法. 一点小事情, 有人就觉得大的不得了. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392190@0)

每人各有一票, 都有权选择最符合自己利益的一方. 随意啊, 请便啊最和谐. -dongl(冬令); 2010-12-1 (#6392211@0)

. 这和投票没关系, 少数人的声音也是要听的. 否则就是剥夺别人的权利. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392225@0)

你可以看成小事, 有人可以觉得大的不得了, 各持己见, 很和谐嘛. -dongl(冬令); 2010-12-1 (#6392237@0)

是啊, 我们就是讨论问题么.表达不同看法. 这是正常现象. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392247@0)

同他们一样，我们黄人也有我们黄人的担心：为什么我们学历高，可当 director 总轮不上？这个不能指望按比例分配，要靠自己努力。希望白人黑人也一样想。 -win(秋天的菠菜); 2010-12-1 (#6392105@0)

你说我们来这里为什么要考英语?不说英语在加拿大照样可以生活的不错啊. 哈哈. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392133@0)

不知道有多少企业真这么做，你见到几个？如果有人说我们不能雇你而要选一个欧洲人，我想你可以告他歧视吧？ -coolmao(酷猫*Zensunni); 2010-12-1 (#6392074@0)

我说的是比例. 个例先不说. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392096@0)

这个比例有硬性规定吗？哪里可以看到？政府还好理解，因为主要是为纳税人服务。私人企业绝对不会把这个放招聘首位，最多是为了宣传企业形象。 -coolmao(酷猫*Zensunni); 2010-12-1 (#6392119@0)

对主要是政府. 我只是听说过,, 现在拿不出证据. 我想把问题回到学校上, 学校对留学生的招收有没有比例? 为什么? -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392140@0)

如果说黑人入学太少额外增加一些名额专门给黑人，我可以同意。单挑出一个种族给予帮助是可以的。单挑出来一个种族来欺负是不能允许的。 -tzm_oasis(绿洲); 2010-12-1 (#6392098@0)

"如果说黑人入学太少额外增加一些名额专门给黑人", 这是不是也是一种变相歧视? 别生气啊, 仅仅是讨论问题. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392147@0)

TDSB不是有专门给黑人孩子上的学校吗？你说这是歧视还是优惠？ -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392159@0)

问的好, 这本身就有很大争议, 我看多电视报道这个问题. 有人同意, 有人坚决反对. 很难说谁的观点100%正确和错误.. 社会问题就是如此, 因此在定性的时候才应该慎重, -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392188@0)

"定性的时候才应该慎重"?这个我同意。问题是人家不是已经给咱华人孩子定性了吗？现在要做的是改变那个不正确的定性。 -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392200@0)

那就搞个survey 推翻他们的结论. 说我们亚洲的孩子在所有方面都很好:)) -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392205@0)

你我搞没有用，要让tdsb之类的政府机构来搞才有说服力。我相信肯定能找出一大批各方面都很好的华人孩子。 -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392222@0)

那就请华人名流写这方面的文章."The purpose of this specific conference is to encourage parents to see a bigger picture in education, to consider multiple pathways to success." 我觉得这个说的很好. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392228@0)

FW: It was inevitable, once Ontario's first Afro-centric school became reality, that disputes about race would ensue. -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2010-12-1 (#6392191@0)

我不认为这是歧视。黑人需要这方面的帮助。 -tzm_oasis(绿洲); 2010-12-1 (#6392241@0)

也有黑人反对, 这也正常. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392248@0)

我也反对，但不是因为歧视。而是因为我认为这么做没用。如果有一些做法是为了限制某一种族的权利，那就是歧视。像这样没有歧视的事情都有人反对。如果中国人还对macleans那样的歧视文章容忍的话就真是有病了。 -tzm_oasis(绿洲); 2010-12-1 (#6392328@0)

别说人家'有病', 是 Not Natural. 哈哈... -dongl(冬令); 2010-12-1 (#6392352@0)
我觉得有人把严重性大大的高估了. 但这也是有历史和文化原因的.中国人对待不同的问题有不同的观点多的不能再多了, 因此没必要那样说. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392507@0)

这不是严重性高低的问题。而是有没有种族歧视的问题，只要有种族歧视，就是严重性再低，也要尽力反击。 -tzm_oasis(绿洲); 2010-12-1 (#6392525@0)

你的结论至少和平权会的有很大的不同. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392542@0)

不同是正常的。还有根本把macleans的文章不当回事儿的呢，这点不同算什么。只要大方向相同，都认为作为亚裔的一部分受到了不公平的说辞就够了。其实我认为macleans的文章只是一个种族歧视的苗头。 -tzm_oasis(绿洲); 2010-12-1 (#6392985@0)

我觉得首先要质疑的是这个比例。不区分家庭教育背景/社会位置等等各种因素得出的数据不让人信服。无可置疑的，大多数华人父母都是受过良好教育，已经在国内的教育体系中选拔出来的。拿这样一个群体跟所有加拿大土生白人家庭（包括很多仅仅接受高中甚至更少教育的父母）比， -xiaoxiao(笑笑); 2010-12-1 {84} (#6392120@0)
显然不合适，得出的结论也不让人信服。要比，也需要同受过同等教育的白人家庭比，才公平。

这个有道理, -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392136@0)
人家就是想得出这样一个比例来support他们的立场. 作为一个高级职员不会不知道怎么做数据分析的。 -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392142@0)

Thank you for the update. I wonder how Ms Yau defines Group. It is indeed not natural for a person like her(check her title) to have such low judgement. -dongl(冬令); 2010-12-1 {220} (#6392062@0)
If she conducts a survey among a group of students whose parents are working in TDSB, it is very natural to see most of them are heading for university. In my opinion, Ms Yau has failed her qualification to work in TDSB.
大致看了一下，感觉不太舒服。他们还是说unusual。说华人的孩子不自信，缺乏social skills，这点很片面。不知道他们survey的对象是什么样的构成， -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 {219} (#6392066@0)
如果是孩子本身是第一代移民的话，到了一个新的环境不够自信没有足够的社交技巧难道不很正常吗？难道那个Yau一踏上加拿大就有和她今天一样的自信吗？

他们调查了多少土生土长的华人孩子？难道那些孩子还有这些问题吗？我不这样认为。

那就首先质疑survey的结果才好, -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392094@0)

对于一样的数据不同的人会得出不同的结论。而这个结论往往取决于那个人想得到什么样的结论。 -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392111@0)

这个说的太泛. 可能任何人都这样, 你和我也不例外. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392199@0)

你我是普通人，随便得出个结论没关系。可报纸杂志和政府机构是有影响力的，这个影响力不仅仅是对普通大众，也会对政府里大学里制定招生政策的人。所以结论要尽量客观，不能加进个人的感情色彩。我个人认为Yau把他自己对大陆人的不喜欢加了进去。 -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392216@0)

先不说影响力, 不客观的研究能对得起纳税人的银子吗? -dongl(冬令); 2010-12-1 (#6392229@0)

请具体指出其中不客观的地方,有依据的反对才能有好的效果, 我看到我们很多华人是感情用事的多一些. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392239@0)

个人认为, 这事已经过了辩论时效, 同意昨天一位朋友说的, 观点相左的互不踩界. -dongl(冬令); 2010-12-1 (#6392266@0)

她的话是根据调查说的, 如果调查结果不符合事实,那是另一个问题. 但你的话"我个人认为Yau把他自己对大陆人的不喜欢加了进去", 有根据么? -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392231@0)

是结论不符合事实，不是调查结果不符合事实。我说了“我个人认为”，是我读了文章的感受。 -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392245@0)

那就应该具体指出"结论和调查结果的不符合",您能具体说说么? -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392250@0)

I already said "the hidden truth is that they don’t always have the independence or social skills to survive once they’re there”, is based on surveys conducted by TDSB among students", is not true. -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392270@0)

如果说是"the hidden truth ", 那不同的人可真是理解不同. 那么你认可"that they always have the independence or social skills "这个结论了? -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392288@0)

只能说tdsb那些人水平比较差. 居然用always这样的字眼。 -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392305@0)

我赞同你在这一点上的看法,:))让他们改了不就得了, -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392313@0)

“让他们改了不就得了“？你这话说得好轻松？立场观点是那么好改的吗？尤其是人家对你华人已有偏见的情况下。 -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392318@0)

我承认白人对华人有偏见, 我也承认华人自身也有普遍的问题. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392332@0)

“华人自身的问题是造成偏见的主要原因“？至少我不这样认为。有些白人从心底里歧视其他族裔。看来你的思维和大家的确不一样，不谈了。请了一天病假光顾上网了。 -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392351@0)

1. "有些白人从心底里歧视其他族裔。"是的, 但不能就此人为某篇文章的作者就一定是这些白人.2.对一个民族的一个特点的总结并不能简单的用歧视来定性. 3. 中国人写的有关大量的关于家庭和高等教育的缺陷分析多的很. 很多是可以说明在教育理念上的差别的. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392503@0)

没有找到 about us 和 research网页 -tzm_oasis(绿洲); 2010-12-1 (#6392137@0)

I have hard time finding the mentioned survey, have emailed them, anyway, the research section's link is here: -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2010-12-1 (#6392141@0)

谢谢你给的link。但找不到文中所说的那个survey。 -tzm_oasis(绿洲); 2010-12-1 (#6392260@0)

Good job. I respect and admire everyone can write a letter or take a personal action. -hotmoon(梵高的耳朵); 2010-12-1 (#6392185@0)
My concerns is that a survey reflects the views of the participants. The result may tell a student may feel not confident in some area, does it really mean she/he really has difficulties in that area? Surveys are not scientific studies! -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2010-12-1 (#6392223@0)

"Surveys are not scientific studies! "This is true.但用surevy可以被任何人拿来做研究和作为一个判断依据. 比如survey说一个种族在某种疾病发病率上高于其他种族, 或喜好或厌恶一种东西等等.可以引起关注. 也可以为开发市场服务.这在新闻里也很正常,. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392244@0)

Well, actually folks at TDSB also suggested that behind Macleans / Toronto Star's articles there might be the intention to attract attentions! -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2010-12-1 (#6392261@0)
要看这个survey的作用是什么。比如一个survey说多吃黄豆可以减少癌症的发病率，相信的人就多吃些黄豆，不相信的就置之不理，没什么不好。可tdsb的survey可以影响其它族裔对华人的看法，影响大学制定招生政策，对这种不客观不公平的survey结论就要制止。 -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392263@0)

survey本身既可以发现问题, 也可以被人利用. 就如真相一样, 有人想知道, 有人害怕. 但这和真相本身没关系. 因此, 如果对survey 的结果不认同, 可以质疑, 也可以灾委托中立机构进行. 但不能禁止别人用survey来做为依据表达看法. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392276@0)

什么是真相呢？华人孩子那么多，什么样的都有，起码文章中说得和我所知道的不符，是不是我可以认为他们说的不是真相？ -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392283@0)

这就是syurvey的作用啊, 我说了,不认同的可以另外再做么. 可以对比结果, 找出差别, 因为survey也是有误差的, 如果设计的不合理, 也得不出正确的结论. 但你自己没有却去反对别人的结果,就是在用个体去反对一个调查结论, 没有力量. 明白了么? -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392290@0)

一个人“用个体去反对一个调查结论, 没有力量“，不错。如果很多人呢？ -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392300@0)

对党派的支持率经常有survey, 没见低的党多生气或让党员去反对. 反要反点子上,多到什么程度, 你去给她说, 多数人反对survey的结果, 她会问你: 多少人? -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392316@0)

感情谁都有,, 发泄或表达没问题, 但要去反对一个组织或survey必须拿出理性和实际的东西. 我在替你们着急啊. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392322@0)

你不用替大家着急，改变华人在老外心中的形象需要时间，从自身做起吧。over. -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392359@0)

是的, 几百年了, 还是先从自己做好最能让别人看的起. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392505@0)

Well the problem is TDSB is the education authority serving the public thus has huge social responsibilities, what it's going to say or to do is not to be shrugged off. It's serious business. -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2010-12-1 (#6392293@0)
个人表达看法可以，但有影响力的报纸杂志和政府机构是不可以随便发表不公平不客观地看法的。我个人认为那2篇文章是有目地的。 -ebusiness(宝宝,姐姐,爸爸,妈妈); 2010-12-1 (#6392295@0)

即使是不公平不客观,也不能就等同于种族主义或种族歧视.你可以用不客观和不公平去反对他们, 这才是正确的做法. 而不是把不相关的帽子扣给别人, 硬要别人承认, 这就像某人说某人是FLG或爱党一样, 非让别人承认是很可笑的, -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2010-12-1 (#6392544@0)

FYI. Here's like a survey, on very young kid. 5 year old girl: the light-skinned doll is smart, the dark-skinned doll is mean. Does it tell the truth? -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2010-12-1 (#6392253@0)

Update (got it from TDSB): TDSB’s editorial response to the Star that was submitted on November 17 2010, which was not published -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2010-12-6 {1084} (#6400643@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛One goal, many paths

Re: Asian students suffering for success, Nov. 10

All parents, regardless of race, want their children to be successful. As educators, we share that goal. But what does success look like? We believe the answer is as unique as every student who asks that question.

At the recent Toronto District School Board co-sponsored conference, East Asian Parents: Multiple Pathways to Success, parents heard from a number of educational and professional experts who explored a broad range of educational paths, including university, along which young people can grow, learn to think critically, and become successful adults.

The fact is, when it comes to learning, there is no single path to success. One size does not fit all. And no group of students, however defined, should be essentialized.

Success starts with educating all students about the many academic choices that are open to them, helping them discover who they are, and supporting them as they decide what path to pursue.

Donna Quan
Deputy Director, Academic
Toronto District School Board更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

这句我觉得比较切题，有点像澄清一下TDSB立场的意思： “no group of students, however defined, should be essentialized.“ ( 直译 -- 不应该简单的概括任何一个学生的群体的本质, 无论它是如何划分的. 大概意思 -- 以偏概全的把学生简单的分类贴标签是不应该的) -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2010-12-6 {429} (#6400937@0)
Note:
In philosophy, essentialism is the view that, for any specific kind of entity, there is a set of characteristics or properties all of which any entity of that kind must possess. Therefore all things can be precisely defined or described.
...
In simple terms, essentialism is a generalization stating that certain properties possessed by a group (e.g. people, things, ideas) are universal, and not dependent on context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essentialization

Update: Newly published TDSB research report, <STUDENT CENSUS: CORRELATIONS OF SCHOOL EXPERIENCE WITH STUDENT DEMOGRAPHICS AND ACHIEVEMENT> (you might check the section 'School Experiences by Student Racial Background', page starting 24) -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2010-12-6 {128} (#6400663@0)
For all TDSB research reports published, visit

http://www.tdsb.on.ca/_site/ViewItem.asp?siteid=172&menuid=28103&pageid=24167
http://www.tdsb.on.ca/wwwdocuments/about_us/external_research_application/docs/StudentCensusReport-SchoolExperiencesFinal.pdf

东亚学生除了课堂参与比其他族群低一点，没什么别的不同啊？看不出这个调查跟TDSB组织的针对东亚家长的＂成功之路不只一条＂活动有什么关系。更重要的是，这个活动跟麦克林的文章只是时间上的偶合，还是有联系的呢？ -walkalong(youstartedit); 2010-12-6 (#6400827@0)

应该没有联系，属于Toronto Star的问题，把Maclean's的文章和这个对东亚家长的＂成功之路不只一条＂活动的报道放在一起，另外那位Maria女士说话比较不注意正好被利用了. Toronto Star Nov 20的文章已经有所反省,而且今天与CCNC又有会晤,态度还算不错. -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2010-12-6 (#6400844@0)

噢，要是YAU就是个书呆子也就算了，我想TDSB也受到警告了。不为己甚也罢。 -walkalong(youstartedit); 2010-12-6 {213} (#6400885@0)
其实不光YAU，美人也是，老跟华人自己叫劲有点怪怪的。

当初老蒋老共杀的尸山血海的, 也能一起打日本。倒是当出一腔热血的汪兆铭，可惜了，还不如让满清砍了的好。

自己人打自己人，独运轮共都算上，打着都别扭，都不痛快。

Update: Newly published TDSB research report, <STUDENT CENSUS: CORRELATIONS OF SCHOOL EXPERIENCE WITH STUDENT DEMOGRAPHICS AND ACHIEVEMENT> (you might check the section 'School Experiences by Student Racial Background', page starting 24)

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